Making Premoves optional (with workflow)

There does at least seem to be intelligent debate here and some good points on both sides.  This is good, for what I have read in earlier threads does seem to indicate some strong feeling on the subject.

As I've said, I've no objection to the well thought out proposal in the initial post here, I just doubt that it will ever be implemented with everything else in the priority queue.

Question, though:

Do those who vehemently oppose pre-moves, also share a similar conviction with respect to conditional moves in correspondence time-controls?

I love conditional moves.  Way better than in the oldschool paper correspondence where you had to tell them "if ....then..." - giving away your analysis.  In one game recently I was able to give 3 seperate lines of mate in 3 without appearing bigheaded.  (I have no objection to premove though - I actually think I would use it if I played Bullet, just scared to try lol.)

I wouldn't think so-the main issue non-premovers have with pre-moves is that they are at a time disadvantage. Time is not a factor in correspondence chess.

Conditional moves are typically opposed based on:

-the nasty psychological shock that your opponent predicted your move

-the fact that you don't get an extra two days of time from his bank

-a long sequence of conditional moves in one game, combined with an on-line player in another, makes it impossible to complete all your moves and switch on vacation (for free players)

I myself think conditional moves are awesome: they speed up the game and lower my atrocious time per move.

Incidentally, I never utilized pre-moves myself in the many bullet (1 0) games I played here (before the stats were reset), but I never had any objection to my opponent using them, and that was when they didn't cost any time at all.

I didn't say they were the same, I said they were similar.

In my mind the question gets to the underlying reason for the objection -- is it the principled idea that automation, and possibly any deviation from the rules should be eliminated, or is it primarily due to the impact it has on the game (something that's much harder to argue against conditionals).

A fair point, Grobe.  I would find it hard to complain if they removed conditionals but I do like them.  Personally I am amazed that anyone can play 1 min chess without premoves so maybe they are a nice feature for those of us who are mortal.

Ah but you can do it in OTB lightning games. Although as that other person pointed out, you can't finish your move before your opponent hits their clock. However Ive seen games where the players move faster than .1 seconds.

The thing is, you dont have to use premoves if you dont want to, but the idea that your opponent gets a huge advantage I disagree with strongly. The only advantage they would have is if you were both under 10 seconds in time, otherwise its actually a large disadvantage (it sort of still is even under 10 seconds) due to blunders. Premoves only become useful when you are good enough to predict your opponents most likely moves, otherwise you just walk into a blunder everytime you use it.

I'm sorry, but if you are losing games its a difference in bullet skill rather than your opponent having a premove advantage. I would suggest trying out premoves just to see what kind of an advantage it really is, before asking for its removal.

With TheGrobes argument of OTB bullet having the "premove" kind of ability, that is a valid argument too. (btw before you start getting at me, i like premoves, not dis-like, but want the option as I understand people who don't like them).

OTB having premoves already makes premoves in online chess no problem at all, and so fundamentally it doesn't take away any "chess" from it at all. But does it? There is a problem i believe in that it gives players the knack of raising their speed ability by a lot more than usual. Of course for the REALLY FAST otb players like the one in the video, it wouldn't really benefit comparing to their otb play, but for many who don't move that fast otb, they would find premove an advantage.

That being said, im not sure how many find that an advantage. Thinking about it, the majority of people can move really fast and hit the clock (otb) after their opponent has moved... But not as fast as 0.1 seconds though - maybe they have the ability too, but don't because they just don't realise they "can"/it would look a bit overthetop in the environment. I don't know.

Also someone mentioned lag, lag DOES NOT take time off you, but it is a problem that creates probably one of the main difference between otb and online: It adds time to the overall match; gives you more time to think. But to me its not such a big difference, only like 10 seconds overall more thinking time unless lag is really bad (for me its there being no person there, but even then I don't really get effected by that; i play the board :))

So, are premoves really an advantage? Possibily. Now we know it depends on the player, considering the grobe's argument. Is premove benefitial to the large majority of players? (eg 90%+? Or even 80%+).

The other snag is, even if premove isn't an advantage... actually it is if you play against someone who doesn't use them because for whatever "flawed reason" shall we call it (a natural reason for thinking premove does sort of take chess out of what it should be), they don't like premoves. So your playing 0.1 secs while thye play something considerably longer.

So therefore I yet AGAIN say that having an option would be good :P

For those saying premoves don't give you an advantage over someone who doesn't use them, there must be some out there, let me present you this example:

both people 10 secs left. Add a "little bit" of lag (eg 0.3 secs per move or something). Now one player has premove TURNED ON, and the other OFF.

Naturally the one with them turned on can think + save more time than the one with them off. And most probably even if the one with them turned off gets into a winning position, he cannot checkmate the other opponent without losing on time guranteed. Therefore premove would be very useful here =P and so premoves do give you an advantage, no buts. 

I still can't help but think that simply playing 1 1 instead of 1 0 effectively negates any of the perceived benefit that pre-move has without otherwise fundamentally changing the nature of the bullet game.

In all fairness. pre-moves hurt me more then they help me.I pick up the piece and drop it as soon as they move. Saves me .01 seconds or whatever they take away.

I can checkmate someone in 10 seconds, rather easily if they are trying to rely on premoves. If they are premoving just stage a simple mating attack and they wont block it because they've already premoved their pieces to move somewhere. Another tactic for beating premoves is to simply check them, it takes atleast half a second or more to notice your premove didn't go through and to realize your king is in check. It's only in an endgame position that using premoves would be a winning advantage, but I would say I've lost far more games using premoves, than I have won them in a 10 second endgame position where my opponent had no means to checkmate and I just ran down the clock. I really can't even think of a game where that has happened for me.

I would say using premoves, other than in the last 10 seconds of the game when your clock is about to run out, is actually a big disadvantage due to all the blunders it causes. At higher levels you will make less blunders with premove, but atleast in the 2200-2300 range we don't use premoves except under time pressure, and possibly in the opening but that's risky.

I've had mouse troubles, and lag troubles in the past, and that irritates me far more (losing a won position because my mouse was acting up, or my opponents move didn't register until my clock ran out, or I couldn't drag my piece fast enough with my mouse) than losing on time to someone who is using premoves (which you can use to your advantage to stage simple mating attacks which they wont block because they are premoving).

You can't really call this example an unfair advantage when one player CHOOSES to have them off. How is your opponent being unfair when you choose not to take advantage of a site feature that is there for everyone?

A feature is something you want to use and choose to make use of. 

It is not a "feature" if people are forced into using it so as not to be disadvantaged - that is a requirement. 

There is simply too much doubt around the relative pros and cons of premoves for this to be something that people generally aren't aware of, and have very little control over. 

Its a bit like saying, some of your oponents may have magic clocks, but we're not going to tell you who they are... you too can have a magic clock, but you may be playing people with magic clocks. 

I'll say it again, there are already non-premove bullet matches going on all the time - but they're hidden, not open - and not by design, but by chance. 

Premove may be heavily used in Bullet currently, but then - what choice do people have ?

 no you cant move that fast or time it that fast. Premove is definetly faster.
+ you can use premove and your hover techinque to make two super fast moves. Mastering premove = advantage.

 hmmm for me they're an advantage. Be it advantage or disadvantage, that unlevels the game of chess doesn't it? Because people are playing not using level fair playing rules/features, then its "kind of" unfair.

That being said, I don't think a lot of people care enough for chess.com to change it really. Most people are happy as it is now. I think.

Oh and TheGrobe, it is a level playing field in that sense. But if someone DOESN'T LIKE a feature, then thats a complaint then, and want to change that. Which may lead on to not being a level playing field...

hmm, well the focus now is complaining about premoves on that basis. That was what it was before I suppose; there are bound to be some people who don't use premove as a) they don't know about them or b) they don't like them, and/or c) other reasons I don't care about unless u tell me the importance of them =P

and because they don't use them because they don't like them, it becomes an unlevel playing field. Either that, or its a level playing field but the person who dislikes premoves and is using them is unhappy. They're being "forced" to do something they don't approve of, or disadvantaged + dislike.

solutions to this are move to another site or call for a fix.