Is the Traxler Variation Unsound?

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PPS2

sorry but i dont want this thread to end

Conquistador
pfren wrote:
PPS2 wrote:

"Given so much incorrectness, the

Traxler Gambit should be regarded

as unplayable. When it

will ever be reduced to a footnote

in the theory books of the future,

that note might read approximately

like: “4...Ãc5? 5.Àf7!

Ãf2 6.®f1! ©e7 7.Àh8 d5 8.ed5

Àd4 9.d6 cd6 10.®f2 d5

11.Ãe2ê De Zeeuw”. But in

the history of Traxler theory so

many mistakes have been made,

that even regarding this one cannot

be fully sure."

De Zeeuw's analyses are flawed in almost all variations.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1283315840

Given so much incorrectness, it's obvious that

1. His analyses should be mentioned with a barrel of salt handy.

2. Trying to refute the opening by 5.Nxf7 is silly- Black is OK in all lines.

3. Given the complexity of the position, and the bogus evaluations by enghines and experts, one playing white should adopt the KISS principle as soon as possible.

4. Neglected continuations, such as 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4!? should be taken quite seriously- Black has no clear way to prove compensation, and such lines are an excellent way to get "out of the book" as white, and maintain fair winning chances.

I agree with your first three points completely pfren.

As to 5.Bxf7+; 6.Bc4, I felt that when it was analysed in our group, it had some very dangerous lines if black was not careful and allowing a b4 strike, but comparatively to the other two variations, it did not offer as much of an advantage due to the bishop being at an exposed square while not providing pressure on the c6 knight.  I would also like to note that I am surprised that more people do not try to go down the 5.d4 with the problems it creates for black.  But I also realize that most people just slap down the move with the most play in a database or one that the books just slap an positive evaluation and leave it be.

The only good plan is the Bg4-Qh5-Nd4 light square kingside pressure, but even that doesn't give complete compensation against the 5.Bxf7+ lines.

pfren
Conquistador wrote:
pfren wrote:
PPS2 wrote:

"Given so much incorrectness, the

Traxler Gambit should be regarded

as unplayable. When it

will ever be reduced to a footnote

in the theory books of the future,

that note might read approximately

like: “4...Ãc5? 5.Àf7!

Ãf2 6.®f1! ©e7 7.Àh8 d5 8.ed5

Àd4 9.d6 cd6 10.®f2 d5

11.Ãe2ê De Zeeuw”. But in

the history of Traxler theory so

many mistakes have been made,

that even regarding this one cannot

be fully sure."

De Zeeuw's analyses are flawed in almost all variations.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1283315840

Given so much incorrectness, it's obvious that

1. His analyses should be mentioned with a barrel of salt handy.

2. Trying to refute the opening by 5.Nxf7 is silly- Black is OK in all lines.

3. Given the complexity of the position, and the bogus evaluations by enghines and experts, one playing white should adopt the KISS principle as soon as possible.

4. Neglected continuations, such as 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4!? should be taken quite seriously- Black has no clear way to prove compensation, and such lines are an excellent way to get "out of the book" as white, and maintain fair winning chances.

I agree with your first three points completely pfren.

As to 5.Bxf7+; 6.Bc4, I felt that when it was analysed in our group, it had some very dangerous lines if black was not careful and allowing a b4 strike, but comparatively to the other two variations, it did not offer as much of an advantage due to the bishop being at an exposed square while not providing pressure on the c6 knight.  I would also like to note that I am surprised that more people do not try to go down the 5.d4 with the problems it creates for black.  But I also realize that most people just slap down the move with the most play in a database or one that the books just slap an positive evaluation and leave it be.

The only good plan is the Bg4-Qh5-Nd4 light square kingside pressure, but even that doesn't give complete compensation against the 5.Bxf7+ lines.

The big idea behind 6.Bc4 is being able to castle fast, and be able to develop the knight on c3 without worrying about an eventual ...Bg4 pin, as the move Be2 is now handy. I have 58 games with it in my database (patzer games included) and only in a few of them Black managed to find something looking like a reasonable (let alone adequate) compensation.

Here is one mid-level CC where Black succeded splitting the point:

I don't think I would have any serious problem converting this to a full point as white- around move 15 or 16 Black is technically lost. Black needs something more active than that, but how?

Conquistador

I am under the impression the whole idea with 8...h6 just doesn't work as black needs one more tempo.  Actually it reminds me of the line 7.0-0 d6 8.Nc3 h6 9.Nh7 which shows that normal looking tries can just outright lose for black.  I think that the immediate 7.Nc3 is even more damning for black.  The only way to improve is to go back to the 6..Rf8 move which was the problem in the other 5.Bxf7+ lines and try something else or transpose into something better.

6...Qf8 is an idea I wanted to work, but had a problem line I could not solve.

6…Qf8 7.0-0 d6 8.Nc3 Bg4 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.Nxf6 Bxd1 11.Ne6+ Ke7 12.Nxf8 gxf6 13.Rxd1 Raxf8 14.d3 Na5 and white is a solid pawn up.

Maybe you could try 9...Kd8 to improve on your game pfren to avoid the check.  I don't think it is full compensation, but I don't think I can ask for much as black.  Like you said, the Be2 interposition is actually quite problematic to black's light square bind idea.



TheGreatOogieBoogie




Robert_New_Alekhine

I would like to remind everyone that THIS FORUM IS CLOSED

P.s. those games are very instructive!

ghostofmaroczy
Robert0905 reminds us:

I would like to remind everyone that THIS FORUM IS CLOSED

PPS2

I think if anyone that plays 3.Nf6 should reaserch more about the Ng5 line since there a couple of siedlines.

Robert_New_Alekhine
ghostofmaroczy reminds me that I reminded you:
Robert0905 reminds us:

I would like to remind everyone that THIS FORUM IS CLOSED

Polar_Bear
Robert0905 wrote:

I would like to remind everyone that THIS FORUM IS CLOSED

P.s. those games are very instructive!

OK, Then:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/traxler---5-bxf7

It is quite challenge for black to prove sufficient compensation for black, but IMO it is there. However, I must add that almost everyone played 5. Nxf7 in my games (before I switched to French).

RadioRiddles

http://www.chess.com/blog/RiddlesMcFiddles/an-aggressive-defense-against-an-aggressive-attack

:)

Ultraman81

I made a small blogpost about a game with this opening. Doesn't prove anything on the (un)sound aspect, but it demonstrates that it's a fun opening where White can quickly get into trouble if he isn't careful.



adumbrate

yes

PPS2
Robert0905 wrote:
ghostofmaroczy thinks incorrectly that drybasin is clever when actually he is not clever at all:
drybasin is clever:
ghostofmaroczy continued the argument with Robert0905, both of whom think they're clever with this "typing in the text box" stuff when in reality neither of them are clever at all:
Robert0905 lords over this closed forum:
Robert0905 emphatically reiterated the closure of the forum:
Robert0905 will not reopen the forum:
SheridanJupp

No. The traxler isn't unsound. It's very agressive but not unsound. White sets up to attack f7, so black sets up to attack f2. That characterises the opening.

Robert_New_Alekhine

Correct, but black sacrifices an exchange. That casts doubts on the soundness of the opening.

SheridanJupp

That sacrifice enables a strong initiative. Granted, if white plays well, it's questionable and it seems that 4...d5 is the "sane move" in response to Ng5. But "insanity" also lies in Ng5. The move 4.Ng5 is also questionable. Therefore, the Traxler is an equally "questionable" and equally "agressive" response to Ng5.

"4.Ng5 Bc4 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Kg1 Qh4" - The position is equal, despite a bishop sac - black gets 2 pawns and the initiative.