Refuting 1... c6 2... d5

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Avatar of elo123

There is an opponent who I know will play this opening as black every time, whether I start with e4, d4, or pretty much anything else. What first two moves can I play to make this very bad for black, and how can I continue from there? I want to avoid the standard Caro-Kann, because that is what he is hoping for and he knows it very well.

Avatar of AndyClifton

you can't

Avatar of DrSpudnik

You can spice up his pawn structure by learning the Panov-Botvinnik attack:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4

Worth a shot. The Caro-Kann (or Slav vs d4) is perfectly sound.

Avatar of AndyClifton

Or you can try 1 c4 c6 2 e4, as I have often done (to get something less bookish).

Avatar of waffllemaster

1.d4 with 2.d5 refutes 1...c6 2...d5

Avatar of elo123

Thank you DrSpudnik, I may try that. How about:

1. e4 c6 2. c4 d5 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. exd5 Qxd5

That forces his queen out early for the second recapture, but leaves my d-pawn behind; is it any better?

Avatar of DrSpudnik

That's a reasonable side-step into the Panov-Botvinnik

Avatar of DrSpudnik

But they may play 2...e5 so be ready for that one.

Avatar of Shivsky

There's always Blackmar-diemer-ish fun with the Mieses gambit  (3.Be3!?)

Set up for f3 + Nd2 followed by O-O, Qe1 with ideas of Qh4 and the usual "mate the bastard" tactics.

Doesn't work so well for me against stronger players but I've had plenty of scalps at the lower class levels with this ... it is quite potent at blitz as well.

Update: Of course, when it is time to grow up ... learn the exchange + Panov system, understand how to play with the typical Panov pawn structures (IQP) ... and refute your opponent's opening by simply playing better chess.  ;)


Avatar of AndyClifton
elo123 wrote:

Thank you DrSpudnik, I may try that. How about:

1. e4 c6 2. c4 d5 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. exd5 Qxd5

That forces his queen out early for the second recapture, but leaves my d-pawn behind; is it any better?

Looks like you should be thanking me. Wink

Avatar of elo123

Yes, thanks to you too, since I didn't realize you had posted the same thing as me with a different move order.

Avatar of AndyClifton

(Dang, Shivsky is Snively no longer.) Frown

Avatar of elo123

Shivsky, your idea looks interesting and I looked at it on a board, but it seems to be way beyond my level and I am also not familiar with Blackmar-diemer or the Panov system.

Avatar of Shivsky
AndyClifton wrote:

(Dang, Shivsky is Snively no longer.) 

Yup. I got hooked on Venture Bros. recently and was positively smitten by the Monarch.  

Avatar of Shivsky
elo123 wrote:

Shivsky, your idea looks interesting and I looked at it on a board, but it seems to be way beyond my level and I am also not familiar with Blackmar-diemer or the Panov system.

Well give this article by McGrew a read (http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew34.pdf) and see if it might be fun for you.  It adopts a nearly identical system (to the Mieses) against the French and shows you the general ideas of what to do.

Avatar of ghostofmaroczy

elo123, Some hold the opinion that 1 Nf3 d5 2 c4 c6 is inferior for Black.  3 b3, 3 e3 and 3 g3 all have value.  Anti-Slav ideas are highly sought after.

Avatar of pfren

1.d5 c6 2.d5 avoids the whole thing, the only downside being that 2.d5 is really a stupid move, which handles the initiative to Black... Tongue Out

1.e4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.ed5 cd5 4.ed5 Nf6 will normally transpose to a Panov line. White can try keeping the extra pawn for awhile, but Black always has strong counterplay.

Avatar of Chessgrandmaster2001

Against the Caro-Kann, the Panov-Botvinnik Attack is strong(e4 c6 d4 d5 exd5 cxd5 c4) if you know how to play when you have an IQP. :)

Another one worth trying is e4 c6 d4 d5 Nc3 dxe4 f3. Forgot the name, but this gambit can get you some decent attacks.

Avatar of amartalon
Arizona-Icetea wrote:

@pfren: 2.d5 is a really deep psychological stab into black's mind. No way that move is 'stupid'
You may have every other titled player and all engines backing you up, but I am sure Dr.Freud would back me, if he were alive!

If anything this is a psychological mistake.  You're basically saying to black that you are so afraid of his (not particularly ambitious) opening that you are willing to play a terrible move to avoid it!

Avatar of GMVillads

You can play the slav defence or caro cann, nether of them are bad for black.

Avatar of Guest8898643705
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