Refuting 1... c6 2... d5

  • #1

    There is an opponent who I know will play this opening as black every time, whether I start with e4, d4, or pretty much anything else. What first two moves can I play to make this very bad for black, and how can I continue from there? I want to avoid the standard Caro-Kann, because that is what he is hoping for and he knows it very well.

  • #2

    you can't

  • #3

    You can spice up his pawn structure by learning the Panov-Botvinnik attack:

    1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4

    Worth a shot. The Caro-Kann (or Slav vs d4) is perfectly sound.

  • #4

    Or you can try 1 c4 c6 2 e4, as I have often done (to get something less bookish).

  • #5

    1.d4 with 2.d5 refutes 1...c6 2...d5

  • #6

    Thank you DrSpudnik, I may try that. How about:

    1. e4 c6 2. c4 d5 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. exd5 Qxd5

    That forces his queen out early for the second recapture, but leaves my d-pawn behind; is it any better?

  • #7

    That's a reasonable side-step into the Panov-Botvinnik

  • #8

    But they may play 2...e5 so be ready for that one.

  • #9

    There's always Blackmar-diemer-ish fun with the Mieses gambit  (3.Be3!?)

    Set up for f3 + Nd2 followed by O-O, Qe1 with ideas of Qh4 and the usual "mate the bastard" tactics.

    Doesn't work so well for me against stronger players but I've had plenty of scalps at the lower class levels with this ... it is quite potent at blitz as well.

    Update: Of course, when it is time to grow up ... learn the exchange + Panov system, understand how to play with the typical Panov pawn structures (IQP) ... and refute your opponent's opening by simply playing better chess.  ;)


  • #10
    elo123 wrote:

    Thank you DrSpudnik, I may try that. How about:

    1. e4 c6 2. c4 d5 3. cxd5 cxd5 4. exd5 Qxd5

    That forces his queen out early for the second recapture, but leaves my d-pawn behind; is it any better?

    Looks like you should be thanking me. Wink

  • #11

    Yes, thanks to you too, since I didn't realize you had posted the same thing as me with a different move order.

  • #12

    (Dang, Shivsky is Snively no longer.) Frown

  • #13

    Shivsky, your idea looks interesting and I looked at it on a board, but it seems to be way beyond my level and I am also not familiar with Blackmar-diemer or the Panov system.

  • #14
    AndyClifton wrote:

    (Dang, Shivsky is Snively no longer.) 

    Yup. I got hooked on Venture Bros. recently and was positively smitten by the Monarch.  

  • #15
    elo123 wrote:

    Shivsky, your idea looks interesting and I looked at it on a board, but it seems to be way beyond my level and I am also not familiar with Blackmar-diemer or the Panov system.

    Well give this article by McGrew a read (http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew34.pdf) and see if it might be fun for you.  It adopts a nearly identical system (to the Mieses) against the French and shows you the general ideas of what to do.

  • #16

    elo123, Some hold the opinion that 1 Nf3 d5 2 c4 c6 is inferior for Black.  3 b3, 3 e3 and 3 g3 all have value.  Anti-Slav ideas are highly sought after.

  • #17

    1.d5 c6 2.d5 avoids the whole thing, the only downside being that 2.d5 is really a stupid move, which handles the initiative to Black... Tongue Out

    1.e4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.ed5 cd5 4.ed5 Nf6 will normally transpose to a Panov line. White can try keeping the extra pawn for awhile, but Black always has strong counterplay.

  • #18

    Against the Caro-Kann, the Panov-Botvinnik Attack is strong(e4 c6 d4 d5 exd5 cxd5 c4) if you know how to play when you have an IQP. :)

    Another one worth trying is e4 c6 d4 d5 Nc3 dxe4 f3. Forgot the name, but this gambit can get you some decent attacks.

  • #19
    Arizona-Icetea wrote:

    @pfren: 2.d5 is a really deep psychological stab into black's mind. No way that move is 'stupid'
    You may have every other titled player and all engines backing you up, but I am sure Dr.Freud would back me, if he were alive!

    If anything this is a psychological mistake.  You're basically saying to black that you are so afraid of his (not particularly ambitious) opening that you are willing to play a terrible move to avoid it!

  • #20

    You can play the slav defence or caro cann, nether of them are bad for black.

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