Who is the greatest chess player of all time ?? Bobby Fischer ??

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kindaspongey

"Lasker ... didn't understand positional chess." - another Fischer quote from around the same time as his Morphy comments.
Extended discussions of Morphy have been written in books by GM Franco, GM Beim, GM Ward, GM Marin, GM Bo Hansen, GM McDonald, Garry Kasparov (with Dmitry Plisetsky), and GM Gormally. Anyone see any of them express the view that we should accept Fischer's conclusion about Morphy? There seems to be general agreement that Morphy was, as GM Fine put it, one of the giants of chess history, but that is a long way from saying that he was better than anyone playing today.
https://www.chess.com/article/view/who-was-the-best-world-chess-champion-in-history
"... Morphy became to millions ... the greatest chess master of all time. But if we examine Morphy's record and games critically, we cannot justify such extravaganza. And we are compelled to speak of it as the Morphy myth. ... [Of the 55 tournament and match games, few] can by any stretch be called brilliant. ... He could combine as well as anybody, but he also knew under what circumstances combinations were possible - and in that respect he was twenty years ahead of his time. ... [Morphy's] real abilities were hardly able to be tested. ... We do not see sustained masterpieces; rather flashes of genius. The titanic struggles of the kind we see today [Morphy] could not produce because he lacked the opposition. ... Anderssen could attack brilliantly but had an inadequate understanding of its positional basis. Morphy knew not only how to attack but also when - and that is why he won. ... Even if the myth has been destroyed, Morphy remains one of the giants of chess history. ..." - GM Reuben Fine
It is perhaps worthwhile to keep in mind that, in 1858, the chess world was so amazingly primitive that players still thought tournaments were a pretty neat idea.

ChessieSystem101

yeah

BlackKaweah

Exactly what is there in 21st century chess that Morphy would not understand?

kindaspongey

We are not in a position to know what degree of understanding Morphy would have about the chess that developed after Morphy stopped playing in serious chess competition.

"... [Morphy's] real abilities were hardly able to be tested. ... We do not see sustained masterpieces; rather flashes of genius. The titanic struggles of the kind we see today [Morphy] could not produce because he lacked the opposition. ..." - GM Reuben Fine

ustavnjak

This is like asking who the greatest action hero is in a comic book store - are you trying to start a riot?

Scandinav12345

Fischer played creative and bold. His games are entertaining even for amateurs. However, his career was short. He gave up playing in 1973, he was then 30 years. The best players are young. Did he understand that he sooner or later would loose? In a way he was a coward. 

kindaspongey

"The champions tournament held in 1948 to decide the next world champion ... was won by Mikhail Botvinnik with Vasily Smyslov in second place. ... The Soviet Union would, from that point until its dissolution in 1991, dominate the game at world level. Botvinnik went on ... to become the first Soviet world champion, the beginning of a continuous line of Soviet players to hold the title that was only broken for a few years in the 1970s by Bobby Fischer. ... What made the difference was the system of state sponsorship put in place by the Soviets to train and develop their chess players, ..." - The History of Chess in Fifty Moves by Bill Price

alinfe
SpiderUnicorn wrote:Ratings comparison for the players at their peak.

Kasparov: 2851

Fischer: 2785

Carlsen: 2882

 

Man, we've already been there a million times. grin.png

Chess ratings aren't like meters per second, period. Accept it an move on!

They are a relative metric and can only be used to compare players from the same era. You can compare Kasparov with Short if you wish, but not with Carlsen or Fischer.

Even when comparing players from the same era the reality can be quite different from rating predictions, up to the highest levels:

- The Karpov - Korchnoi 1981 match should have been a tight struggle given their rating difference of merely 5 points. Instead it became known as the "massacre in Merano".

- By 1990, Kasparov's rating was 2800 and Karpov's 2730. He did win the match, but by the smallest margin.

- Topalov's 2006 rating was 70 points higher than Kramnik's but it was the latter who won the reunification match.

VerusMaximinus

Paul Morphy. No one dominated his rivals the way he did. We can see that even his "supposed" errors were in fact often designed to bring the game to an end quicker. Never studied a chess book or database or opening theory. Had no coach nor mentor. Just a naturally born gifted player the likes this world has never seen, nor will ever see.

kindaspongey
Semjaza71 wrote:

Paul Morphy. No one dominated his rivals the way he did. ...

However, Morphy’s rivals were players in 1857-8. It is perhaps worthwhile to keep in mind that, in 1858, the chess world was so amazingly primitive that players still thought tournaments were a pretty neat idea.

kindaspongey
Semjaza71 wrote:

... We can see that even his "supposed" errors were in fact often designed to bring the game to an end quicker. ...

Carlsen-2961 Kramnik-2868 Kasparov-2816 Fischer-2775 Anand-2759 Karpov-2698 Capablanca-2664 Tal-2636 Spassky-2619 Smyslov-2618 Botvinnik-2602 Euwe-2547 Alekhine-2547 Petrosian-2543 Lasker-2498 Morphy-2409 Steinitz-2323

https://www.chess.com/article/view/who-was-the-best-world-chess-champion-in-history

kindaspongey
Semjaza71 wrote:

... Never studied a chess book or database or opening theory. ...

Lawson's Morphy biography indicated that Morphy acquired a few chess books in 1853. Lawson included a report of a Maurian quote:

"... During the two years that we remained at college together, Morphy played a considerable number of games with me at odds gradually diminishing as I improved. ... Mr. Morphy had the following Chess books with him, the only ones, as far as I know that he ever possessed until the New York Chess Congress in 1857. Horwitz and Kling's Chess Studies, which he pronounced a very good and useful book for students, although not free from error; the B. Vols composing the collection of Kieseritzky's La Regence, and Staunton's Chess Tournament. ..."

alinfe
kindaspongey wrote:

"The champions tournament held in 1948 to decide the next world champion ... was won by Mikhail Botvinnik with Vasily Smyslov in second place. ... The Soviet Union would, from that point until its dissolution in 1991, dominate the game at world level. Botvinnik went on ... to become the first Soviet world champion, the beginning of a continuous line of Soviet players to hold the title that was only broken for a few years in the 1970s by Bobby Fischer. ... What made the difference was the system of state sponsorship put in place by the Soviets to train and develop their chess players, ..." - The History of Chess in Fifty Moves by Bill Price

True but even that is a partial picture.

Many overlook the fact that Alekhine wasn't born in Paris, nor did his family emigrate to France when he was 5 or 10. He played under the French flag later in life, but he was still the product of the soviet chess school, he was born and spent his formative years there.

Even after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 the dominance of Russian (or ex-Soviet) players didn't really end until 2007. 

So in fact we're talking about nearly 70 years of dominance interrupted by one man, Bobby Fischer.

Sarim123

alexander alekhine is the best player of all the time

 

Axorcist
ilovesmetuna wrote:

kasparov has one major blemish unfortunately.

5-0 down against the midget karpov and 31 games without a win.

Karpo was no midget! He was one of the most succesful world champions ever. He was not as strong as Kasparov, but a lot stronger then the rest of his field. He managed to be world champion vor 10 years and then the world's second best for the next ten years. Now that's an achievement few players can boast upon.

sujijai

jessica from India.

sujijai

sujijai wrote:

jessica from India.

sujijai wrote: jessica from India is a good player

Lastrank

Alekhine was not a product of the "Soviet chess school."  He was a world class player before the Soviet Union even existed.

Usoundtacticsgenius
Talclone101 is the bet
jackhammerman

Why does it matter ? just a load of sad people who never had a life. chess players are OK but I would'nt 

let them mind the kids !!!!