Is Ivanov a cheater?

paladino2012

This week I read about this new case of cheating in a tournament played in the Croatian city of Zara.

Ivanov, a 26 year old who didn't show in all his chess life genius status, like we have seen in Carlsen, Kasparov, Fischer, etc. Began to crush GM after GM, and strangely only when the broadcast of the round before last game was suspended, Ivanov lost. (yeah, maybe there is a connection!)

Same tournament in 2011, Ivanov played against 1900/2000 rated players, and didn't have a superlative result, since he lost and drew to such lot.

Now, some speak of proof beyond reasonable doubt, but it is evidently people who have interest in justifying cheaters, since unfortunately in chess thousand of hours studying are needed to become a GM, and one doesn't become a GM overnight.

Many also made the mistake of thinking, that Ivanov result could justify 3-400 elo leap. But that is not the case, since in order to beat GM after GM within 35 moves, one need to be above 3000, not a mere 2500-2600.

I do believe FIDE, in order to safeguard chess as a sport, needs to take some drastic measures.

An example could be to let this cheater play, in an isolated setting, 10 games, against one or more GMs, and see what the result is. Because if the result is 0, then we need to refer to the police, or other authorities for evident criminal conduct.

Of course, those who cheat, and want to justify cheaters, will invent more excuses, but they are just pathetic, since we all know the truth.

Again, I publish the winning percentages table, which can let anyone make an experiment at home, they can play against a computer, and see how many times they win.

I'd like also to note that in some sites, playing poker, they have developed programs to detect cheaters, so it shouldn't be difficult to do the same for chess.

 

 

H:  % of games expected to be won by the higher rated player
L:  % of games expected to be won by the lower rated player

JoshG354

I believe he was saying his Rating would need to be that high to be consistantly beating GMs in under 26 moves, not that it was 3000

Estragon
uhohspaghettio wrote:
paladino2012 wrote:

Began to crush GM after GM, 

According to here: http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2012/12/cheating-accusation-in-croatia.html

he only beat one GM, the others were masters. He also did NOT have a performance rating of over 3000 because that would be huge news since even if Carlsen scored that it would be highly notable. You made that up in your head. 

Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start posting probability cards of different games. 

His rating was over 2200 to begin with, and he easily beat a GM. That's highly plausible. If he were a couple of years younger nobody would bat an eyelid and he'd be celebrated, but because he's older and hasn't played as much people raise questions. Also the fact that he is a computer programmer is probably what caused the search.     

WRONG!

He beat FOUR GMS - Bojan Kurajica, Robert Zelcic, Zdenko Kozul and Ivan Saric.  His performance rating was 2697.

He didn't have any detectable device on him, so he wasn't technically "caught" - it is not even clear whether arbiters have the authority to search a player absent specific rules for the competition (as in the Bundesliga) - but it is clear something was very odd here.

-waller-
uhohspaghettio wrote:
paladino2012 wrote:

Began to crush GM after GM, 

According to here: http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2012/12/cheating-accusation-in-croatia.html

he only beat one GM, the others were masters. He also did NOT have a performance rating of over 3000 because that would be huge news since even if Carlsen scored that it would be highly notable. You made that up in your head. 

Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start posting probability cards of different games. 

His rating was over 2200 to begin with, and he easily beat a GM. That's highly plausible. If he were a couple of years younger nobody would bat an eyelid and he'd be celebrated, but because he's older and hasn't played as much people raise questions. Also the fact that he is a computer programmer is probably what caused the search.     

He beat 4 GMs if you bother to read multiple sources on the matter.

fissionfowl
paladino2012 wrote:

An example could be to let this cheater play, in an isolated setting, 10 games, against one or more GMs, and see what the result is. Because if the result is 0, then we need to refer to the police, or other authorities for evident criminal conduct.

 

Yeah, because that's what the police should be concerning themselves with: cheating at a boardgame. lol

pfren

uhospaghettio, you should change your happy pills ASAP. They do seem to harm you.

His play in that four games against GM's is certainly smelly- and in one of the games he lost (agaist GM Jovanic) he defended a very difficult endgame in true computer style, and in the end (where he couldn't probably consult anything due to time shortage) he committed a schoolboy error in a drawn endgame, which costed him half a point.

Doggy_Style

Maybe it's time for chess to police itself:

 

A damp cell in Eastern Europe, lit by an unshaded tungsten filament bulb, fingernails and bodily fluids decorate the concrete walls.

 

You wake to discover yourself chained to a chair. Across a steel table sits the spitting image of Joe Stalin.

 

Joe: "Name, rating and tournament number!"

 

You: "W what? who are you?"

 

Joe: "You are currently a guest of the Chesstapo, until such a time as we believe that we have the truth"

 

You: "You're crazy man!"

 

A chess board whacks you round the head, your head spins, your eyes blur, your ears ring.

 

Joe: "NAME! RATING! TOURNAMENT NUMBER!"

 

You see Joe pick up a large wooden, soviet-made chess clock and wonder where he's going to fit it.

 

You: "Okay! okay! this is what happened....."

pfren
Doggy_Style wrote:

You see Joe pick up a large wooden, soviet-made chess clock and wonder where he's going to fit it.

This does not stand up even as a fairytale.

The soviet chess clocks were always plastic. The wooden ones (just about the best available at their time) were made in East Germany.

fissionfowl

+ You have to think about splinters.

Doggy_Style
pfren wrote:
Doggy_Style wrote:

You see Joe pick up a large wooden, soviet-made chess clock and wonder where he's going to fit it.

This does not stand up even as a fairytale.

The soviet chess clocks were always plastic. The wooden ones (just about the best available at their time) were made in East Germany.

There are rules for fairy tales now?

 

Moscow clock:

"Made by the Moscow clock Company No.2 (and the Jantar factory as well), these huge and very silent clocks were the tournament standard in the USSR from the 30's till the 60's. Typical features of these Soviet clocks are the action stoppers in the middle, long button action, and massive clockworks. These clocks have forerunners in old German chessclocks they might be copied from."

 

 

http://www.chess-museum.com/the-chess-clock-cabinet-i.html

 

also:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-Russian-Soviet-USSR-WOODEN-CHESS-Clock-work-/390116500990

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Soviet-Chess-Clock-Watch-Moscow-MChZ-2-Very-Rare-wooden-case-Ussr-/110995638126?pt=Games_US hash=item19d7db076e

 

p.s. Tongue Out

GenghisCant

fissionfowl wrote:

paladino2012 wrote:

An example could be to let this cheater play, in an isolated setting, 10 games, against one or more GMs, and see what the result is. Because if the result is 0, then we need to refer to the police, or other authorities for evident criminal conduct.

 

Yeah, because that's what the police should be concerning themselves with: cheating at a boardgame. lol

At the top level there is a huge amount of money to be made from chess and, if he was cheating, it is nothing short of theft. If the participants pay thousands of £/$ to enter and someone cheats their way to a win it is stealing. Why shouldn't the police get involved at that level if cheating is proven? They would if you used technology to steal from a casino.

gaereagdag

Call me a fool. Call me an idiot. Call me gullible.

But in a post-internet world with endless videos, e-books and coaching, leaps of performance are possible without cheating. Maybe he was always at this level and some personal issue [health, travel to chess events, work hours] hindered his chess abilities. None of us know Ivanov personally, I assume, so how can anyone reach a conclusion of cheating? I can't.

pfren

Well, my former pic was shot back in 1997 by Inge Zwietnig at the EU team championship in Olomouc. The new one is rather recent.

johnyoudell

It is sad that cheating has come into chess. I believe the will exists to combat it - the efforts made on this site being an example.

Cycling suffered from widespread cheating and recovered; to a certain extent athletics also.  Let us hope chess can find effective ways to combat the cheats.

fissionfowl
Genghiskhant wrote:

fissionfowl wrote:

paladino2012 wrote:

An example could be to let this cheater play, in an isolated setting, 10 games, against one or more GMs, and see what the result is. Because if the result is 0, then we need to refer to the police, or other authorities for evident criminal conduct.

 

Yeah, because that's what the police should be concerning themselves with: cheating at a boardgame. lol

At the top level there is a huge amount of money to be made from chess and, if he was cheating, it is nothing short of theft. If the participants pay thousands of £/$ to enter and someone cheats their way to a win it is stealing. Why shouldn't the police get involved at that level if cheating is proven? They would if you used technology to steal from a casino.

I guess you have a point.

Vo1d3mort

"Began to crush GM after GM, and strangely only when the broadcast of the round before last game was suspended, Ivanov lost. (yeah, maybe there is a connection!)"

That was not his only loss. And he won against a GM, when the broadcast was off as well.

If someone is really interested in that case, maybe he could post his games here and analyze them with some standard engines. Actually i think things might get obvious even by analyzing them with 1 engine.

temp_ddg
Vo1d3mort wrote:

"Began to crush GM after GM, and strangely only when the broadcast of the round before last game was suspended, Ivanov lost. (yeah, maybe there is a connection!)"

That was not his only loss. And he won against a GM, when the broadcast was off as well.

If someone is really interested in that case, maybe he could post his games here and analyze them with some standard engines. Actually i think things might get obvious even by analyzing them with 1 engine.

The games have been posted here:

http://www.chess.com/news/suspected-cheater-strip-searched-4830

jesterville

One of the main problem is that there is no standard. Different Tournaments do things differently...and some of the rules concerning suspected cheaters are vague at best in how to proceed. Cheating in chess even at the pro level has been going on for some time now...this incident is not an isolated one, yet FIDE does not seem serious about doing anything positive.

Concerning this case in particular, a player who clearly is playing above his stregth will always be suspected. Because the games are live, and engines can find the best move in seconds...the only problem for cheaters is "how to convey the message"...and there are also many ways to solve this problem especially when the general public is within eyeview.

Aletool

New Cheating devices are made  everyday and more sophisticated ones to come yet.

EternalChess

Look at his games, compare to engine.. simple really.

The thing is he is a 2200, so if he plays like a computer, then hes a cheater.

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