Covid-19 Discussion (moderated)

Sort:
Marie-AnneLiz
chamo2074 a écrit :

I am sure these two countries have different cases, but my point is that refusing a vaccine shouldn't be at the cost of one's job. Even without valid justification, being scared of side-effects is enough, it's the guy's opinion afterall, and if we want to dig deep into side-effects, that is also possible.

2. Suspension du contrat en cas d'absence de pass vaccinal
En cas de non-présentation du pass vaccinal (refus de présentation ou pass vaccinal non valide), l'employeur doit notifier au salarié, par tout moyen le jour même, la suspension de son contrat ou de ses fonctions.

En effet, le salarié qui ne présente pas le pass vaccinal obligatoire à son employeur, ne peut plus exercer son activité tant qu'il ne fournit pas les justificatifs valides.

💡 A savoir :

La suspension du contrat de travail ou des fonctions entraîne également la suspension de la rémunération. Le salarié n'est donc pas payé et ne peut pas travailler en attendant la régularisation de sa situation.

En revanche, si l'employeur est d'accord, le salarié peut utiliser ses jours de congés payés ou ses jours de repos (RTT...) pour éviter la suspension de son contrat et l'absence de rémunération.

"Un test PCR ou antigénique négatif n'est donc plus accepté."

"

Les employeurs doivent donc demander à leurs salariés de leur présenter leur pass vaccinal valide, c'est-à-dire :

un justificatif de statut vaccinal complet ;
un certificat de rétablissement pour les personnes ayant déjà contracté le virus. Il est actuellement valable pendant 6 mois mais, à partir du 15 février 2022, il sera valide seulement pendant 4 mois ;
un certificat de contre-indication à la vaccination."

" Dans les entreprises de 50 salariés et plus, l'employeur doit informer le comité social et économique (CSE), sans délai et par tout moyen, des mesures de contrôle du pass vaccinal et/ou de l'obligation vaccinale, qu'il doit mettre en place."

Translated:

2. Suspension of the contract in the event of absence of a vaccination pass
In the event of non-presentation of the vaccination pass (refusal of presentation or invalid vaccination pass), the employer must notify the employee, by any means on the same day, of the suspension of his contract or his functions.

Indeed, the employee who does not present the mandatory vaccination pass to his employer, can no longer exercise his activity as long as he does not provide valid supporting documents.

💡 Namely:

The suspension of the employment contract or functions also entails the suspension of remuneration. The employee is therefore not paid and cannot work while waiting for the regularization of his situation.

On the other hand, if the employer agrees, the employee can use his days of paid leave or his days of rest (RTT...) to avoid the suspension of his contract and the absence of remuneration.

"A negative PCR or antigen test is therefore no longer accepted."

"

Employers must therefore ask their employees to show them their valid vaccination pass, i.e.:

proof of complete vaccination status;
a certificate of recovery for people who have already contracted the virus. It is currently valid for 6 months but, from February 15, 2022, it will only be valid for 4 months;
a certificate of contraindication to vaccination."

"In companies with 50 or more employees, the employer must inform the social and economic committee (CSE), without delay and by any means, of the measures to control the vaccination pass and/or the vaccination obligation, that he must put in place."

I disagree, because you have some irrational fear is not a valid reason to put many peoples at risk of catching the covid 19.

If you have good reason to not get any covid 19 vaccine just see your doctor and get the proper paper to prove it and you will be ok.

You have strong emotions like phobia or no trust in those vaccine or in the government or it's your "ideology" etc etc that is why you make a bad choice from the social deal that we all have to respect.

 

chamo2074

But the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, so I'm not really putting people at risk if I'm not vaccinated/saving other people if I am vaccinated. Vaccines are just a self protection that  saves your life in case of a fatal COVID case.

"Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”"

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

They reduce it, but if two vaccinated people are standing next to each other there is a decent possibility they can transmit the virus. If you follow the guidelines, wear masks, wash your hands why would you be paranoid of somebody being unvaccinated next to you?

Plus since there are justifications to refuse vaccination, why would an unvaccinated with justification be different in this case, than an unvaccinated without justification?

 

Marie-AnneLiz
chamo2074 a écrit :

But the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, so I'm not really putting people at risk if I'm not vaccinated/saving other people if I am vaccinated. Vaccines are just a self protection that  saves your life in case of a fatal COVID case.

"Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”"

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

They reduce it, but if two vaccinated people are standing next to each other there is a decent possibility they can transmit the virus. If you follow the guidelines, wear masks, wash your hands why would you be paranoid of somebody being unvaccinated next to you?

Plus since there are justifications to refuse vaccination, why would an unvaccinated with justification be different in this case, than an unvaccinated without justification?

 

 Unvaccinated people are ten times more likely to contract COVID, and more likely to pass it on than vaccinated people.

it’s because vaccines reduce the probability of getting infected, which reduces the probability of a vaccinated person infecting someone else. And, despite vaccination providing excellent protection against severe disease, a small proportion of vaccinated people still require ICU care. Therefore some vaccinated people may have a strong preference to mix primarily with other vaccinated people.

Marie-AnneLiz
chamo2074 a écrit :

But the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, so I'm not really putting people at risk if I'm not vaccinated/saving other people if I am vaccinated. Vaccines are just a self protection that  saves your life in case of a fatal COVID case.

"Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”"

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

They reduce it, but if two vaccinated people are standing next to each other there is a decent possibility they can transmit the virus. If you follow the guidelines, wear masks, wash your hands why would you be paranoid of somebody being unvaccinated next to you?

Plus since there are justifications to refuse vaccination, why would an unvaccinated with justification be different in this case, than an unvaccinated without justification?

 

Recent reports from the Victorian Department of Health find that unvaccinated people are ten times more likely to contract COVID than vaccinated people.

We also know that vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the disease even if they become infected. The Doherty modelling from August puts the reduction at around 65%,

Marie-AnneLiz
chamo2074 a écrit :

But the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, so I'm not really putting people at risk if I'm not vaccinated/saving other people if I am vaccinated. Vaccines are just a self protection that  saves your life in case of a fatal COVID case.

"Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”"

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

They reduce it, but if two vaccinated people are standing next to each other there is a decent possibility they can transmit the virus. If you follow the guidelines, wear masks, wash your hands why would you be paranoid of somebody being unvaccinated next to you?

Plus since there are justifications to refuse vaccination, why would an unvaccinated with justification be different in this case, than an unvaccinated without justification?

 

If I were spending time with an unvaccinated person, then there’s some probability they’re infected and will infect me. However, if they were vaccinated, they’re ten times less likely to be infected and half as likely to infect me, following the numbers above.

Hence we arrive at a 20-fold reduction in risk when hanging out with a vaccinated person compared to someone who’s not vaccinated.

Marie-AnneLiz
chamo2074 a écrit :

But the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, so I'm not really putting people at risk if I'm not vaccinated/saving other people if I am vaccinated. Vaccines are just a self protection that  saves your life in case of a fatal COVID case.

"Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”"

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

They reduce it, but if two vaccinated people are standing next to each other there is a decent possibility they can transmit the virus. If you follow the guidelines, wear masks, wash your hands why would you be paranoid of somebody being unvaccinated next to you?

Plus since there are justifications to refuse vaccination, why would an unvaccinated with justification be different in this case, than an unvaccinated without justification?

 

Some people haven’t been able to get vaccinated because they’re either too young or they have a medical exemption. Other people are immunocompromised and won’t get the same level of protection from two doses as the rest of the community.

Increasing our coverage across the board will help protect those who aren’t fully protected by vaccination (whether that’s by eligibility, medical reasons or choice).

Those at higher risk also enjoy the risk reduction if they’re able to mix primarily with vaccinated people.

chamo2074

But again if you follow the guidelines, wear a mask, wash your hands, respect social distancing, why would you be scared? 
And again, if an unvaccinated person has a 'valid justification', what is the difference in that matter?

Marie-AnneLiz

Your unvaccinated friend is roughly 20 times more likely to give you COVID

https://theconversation.com/your-unvaccinated-friend-is-roughly-20-times-more-likely-to-give-you-covid-170448

 

chamo2074

I am not disagreeing, but you're not going to contract the virus if you follow the guidelines, wear a mask, respect social distancing and wash your hands.

Marie-AnneLiz
chamo2074 a écrit :

But again if you follow the guidelines, wear a mask, wash your hands, respect social distancing, why would you be scared? 
And again, if an unvaccinated person has a 'valid justification', what is the difference in that matter?

That is what my very close and best friend of 25 years thought and she was only 40 years old and she died of covid 19 (pneumonia) a few months back....she got it from her boy friend i think....

If i could go back in time trust me i would do everything i could to make sure she got all the vaccine she needed like my sister did to me by making sure i get my three doses.

It's not worth taking the risk.

Marie-AnneLiz
chamo2074 a écrit :

I am not disagreeing, but you're not going to contract the virus if you follow the guidelines, wear a mask, respect social distancing and wash your hands.

Yes you can if someone very close to you or your kids etc give it to you...most people got it right now in my province of 8.5 millions.

chamo2074

FIrst of all may the soul of your friend rest in peace , that's a very sad story but here we're talking about having an unvaccinated collegue at work. There's a huge difference between a boyfriend or one of your kids and a colleague at work.

chamo2074
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
chamo2074 a écrit :

I am not disagreeing, but you're not going to contract the virus if you follow the guidelines, wear a mask, respect social distancing and wash your hands.

Yes you can if someone very close to you or your kids etc give it to you...most people got it right now in my province of 8.5 millions.

Okay there are some questions I think we need to think about here:

1) How many people in this province are vaccinated?

2) Are unvaccinated people in this province making a lot of contact with vaccinated people?.

3) Are the guidelines being respected? (Mask, distancing etc...)

4) What number does most refer to?

TheSheeshKid
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
chamo2074 a écrit :
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
chamo2074 a écrit :
Marie-AnneLiz wrote:
chamo2074 a écrit :

Luckily I had made my research earlier on dangerous COVID vaccine side effects, they include:

Death, Involvement of the vital prognosis, hospitalization, a severe condition that will interfere with your daily life for several weeks or several months.

I thought any politics-related posts were not allowed? So can we please stop bringing up Putin?

It is true that people should make sure they're safe from vaccination, but you can't really know for sure if you are going to get hit with side-effects. Some people in great health might have experienced side-effects which is why authorities just cannot apply vaccine mandates, everyone should be free of choosing. 

You should never cross the road or drive your car because it's not safe 100%.

See I agree with you 100% p

Don't people have the choice to chose whether they want to cross the road or not?

In America everyone has the choice to get a vaccine or not! If you think you are at risk to get a vaccine just go see your doctor he will help you decide if it is safe for you to get vaccinated.

If you have a good reason not to get any vaccine you will not loose any job....if it's just your ideology well it's your choice to take a bad decision and you are still free,no one force you to take the bad decision.

https://www.juritravail.com/Actualite/licenciement-pour-non-vaccination-ou-absence-de-pass-vaccinal-tout-savoir/Id/364824#comment-suspendre-contrat-salari-qui-a-pas-pass-vaccinal

 

First this is in France and not in the USA or Canada.

Second it say no one can be fired if they do not have the pass even if it's required by the job you have.

Licenciement pour refus de vaccination obligatoire, est-ce possible ?

✅ Non, un employeur ne peut pas licencier un salarié qui refuse de se faire vacciner, même s'il fait partie d'une profession soumise à l'obligation vaccinale.

Third there is the justification for some peoples to have a pass or to lose their contracts and  it's common sense to be remove from those jobs because of the risk of spreading the virus:

Cette obligation pour les salariés s'applique lorsque la gravité des risques de contamination, en lien avec l'exercice des activités qui y sont pratiquées, le justifie au regard notamment de la densité de population observée ou prévue.

And there are exceptions like if you show a negative PCR test.

That is an inaccurate, I know nurses that were literally told they couldn’t work because they didn’t get vaccinated 

playerafar

There's a red Report button at top right for a recent post.
Which is by somebody who's had membership since last year.
Everybody who doesn't want to see that rule violation - can hit that red button there.  Within that post.

playerafar


Its getting extra-ridiculous when one is talking about 'nurses' rights to not be vaccinated'.

Nobody is forcing them to be nurses.  Quit anytime.

Analogy:  Fighter pilot in the military:
"I refuse to fly with my guns loaded and air to air rockets on my wings !"
Reply:  "Then what are you doing here ??!!
You're out of the Air Force.
Do you need help finding the exit ?
Want your severance pay?  Turn in your wings at the desk.
And please - don't even think about trying to come back.  You're done.
Dishonorable Discharge too."
(If it was wartime there would be a Court Martial too.  Prison time.)

chamo2074

@playerafar it's not only about nurses, in France :

"In companies with 50 or more employees, the employer must inform the social and economic committee (CSE), without delay and by any means, of the measures to control the vaccination pass and/or the vaccination obligation, that he must put in place."

The vaccination pass includes the suspension of the contract of the employee who refuses to get vaccinated (show the vaccine passport) which is even worse than the verb "licensier" mentioned by @Marie_anneliz in a previous post because if you suspend the contract you also suspend the remuneration.

playerafar

My post concerned/concerns nurses refusing to be vaccinated for hospital work or other medical work.
'its not'.  But Yes.  'It Is'.   That's what my post is about.  Not about 'its not'.
I wonder how many times there'll be a reminder of the idea that its a Covid forum. 
As opposed to whoever wanting to decide 'what its about' for whoever and 'you and me'.  

chamo2074

But even then, the example in the analogy and nurses refusing to get the vaccine are not comparable. If vaccines prevented transmission, that would be accurate but they don't. They only reduce it, and it is certain that nurses take all the precautions needed not to risk a COVID infection for their patients. 

playerafar

"If vaccines prevented transmission, that would be accurate but they don't."
I never said they prevented.
And no - its still 'accurate'. 
And the analogy holds up fine.
And constantly proclaiming that vaccination doesn't prevent transmission isn't helping anything.
But at least its now Exposed that 'somebody' is pushing that.

This forum topic has been locked