A TALLY OF DATABASE-USERS & NON-USERS

i dont use any thing i blindly move thru opening lines. straight tactics and no strategy all day.

wormstar had a great post going until he suggested ( i think this is what he meant) that non-users are just lazy for not usnig this great resource...ect.  After reading that, I just realized he missed the point in Rael's post about non-users playing chess as a leisure activity.  It would be like saying pick-up "american" football players are lazy because they dont spend hours training for their game.  On the contrary, these plays participtae just for the fun.  Many non-users are the same way.  Obviously chess databases are not necessary to become good at chess (think hundreds are years ago).  Perhaps they are not even necessary to become a master at chess.  But they clearly help beginners get a solid background to work with.

I have already posted as a non user but I do think this may be allowed - enjoy 

lol!

Why am I on the user list? I don't use databases I didn't switch sides.

Yeah, artifizz has you listed twice. You're on the non-user side also.

Rael wrote: Yeah, artifizz has you listed twice. You're on the non-user side also.

My apologies for the unintended slur, alec94x. Your position as a Non-User was clearly stated in post #260. The tables of names was correct in post #276 and #315. Basically, I cocked it up in when re-ordering the lists alphabetically in post #399 and #423. Your vigilence does you credit!

I'll post the correction after this.

The distinction between User and Non-User is on the basis of these COT guidelines:  

NON-USERS "... play "over the board" chess, as if we were playing face to face, and unable to use analysis boards, opening books, or any other external aid to help us, we promised we would use our knowledge and experience only to play the game."   ( http://circleoftrust.bravehost.com/ )   

USERS use any or all legitimate facilities while playing the game. This EXCLUDES Chess Engines (such as Fritz) and Endgame Tablebases. (chess.com playing rules)

Counted up to (and including) post #445.

Why am I yellow ???

 It's likely jaundice, you should consult a medical professional.

Or an alternative therapist - see http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/personality-and-chess 

I didn't suggest non-users were lazy, I suggested that non-users who make a big noise about the 'unfair advantage' of dbs & books might be. which is a completely different thing.

just like it's a common experience to get accused of engine abuse after winning a game, in which the opponent dropped material like crazy. I'm sure we've all been there, right? -they find it easier to blame someone else than facing up to their own shortcomings. - improvement takes huge amount of work. and us humans are masters in rationalizing why we don't need to do work, or at least not right now. any reason will do. that's how we've been built, to minimize energy consumption. that's the core of laziness.

Hahahaha that's awesome.

/my robe is itchy
//EEE OOOHHH LEA OMMMMM CTHULU
///I actually think my ex put a hex on me...

good thread Mainstreet!  I can see the use of opening a book to see the potential traps of an unfamiliar opening, although I have only done that after the fact.  Not to judge, but the idea of playing one book or data base against another kinda bores me.  I guess i'm old fashioned.

Non-user

Breaktime:

Woah! Everytime I read a post hitting the other side and vice versa, I'm reminded of the song Dead Flowers by the Rolling Stones, to wit:

"And you can send me dead flowers every morning
Send me dead flowers by the mail
Send me dead flowers to my wedding
And I wont forget to put roses on your grave"

Back to business:

Per Artfizz's Standings...Users - 65, Non-Users - 60

The problem here is that Non-Users and Users see things differently and neither side is able to get the other to see their point of view.

Non-users think of chess.com as the same thing as going to the book store and sitting across from an actual live opponent. They wouldn’t open a chess book on the table no more than using a database within the computer realm.

Users view this site as a way to learn, to increase ones knowledge. They see an opportunity to combine practice with their daily studies. For those working 40 hours a week chess.com is the greatest thing for them.

Neither side is wrong, or better than the other person. The objective is learning, to gain knowledge, or more specifically in this case improve at the game of chess. There are no prizes here outside of arbitrary points and pictures of trophies. Neither of which you can take out into the real world and exchange for something of value. It shouldn’t matter if your opponent is learning on the fly, or afterwards with a book. The challenge is to increase your ability at the game.

We are brought up with the idea that there are only two outcomes with a game, win or lose. Along with these are morals of the age we live in, as these change with the hands of time. Sometimes we get caught up in how we combine these things such as a moral of fair competition in combination with trying to play a game. We feel that by using only our mind that we are applying these rules, but we are not opening our mind to the possibility that winning or losing are not the only options. Increasing ones knowledge should be the ultimate goal.

Do not confuse this with competitions where something is at stake, such as Olympic gold or a monetary prize in an OTB tournament. We are at chess.com discussing preferences here, yet misunderstanding both Users and Non-Users long term goals; which is to improve at the game of chess.

Regardless of your choice the objective is the same, which is to gain more information and recall for later, for in the end whether you win or lose, you will simply start another game and continue a journey of discovery.

well said!

For those who want to understand what CoT (Circle of Trust) is all about, here's a note from a fellow CoT OTB:

"When we first started CoT OTB, it was just a half dozen friends who wanted to play as we had years before, we wanted to try and make it as close as possible to playing a friend in you own house, and sitting over the board from each other, the rules were the basic rules you would use in such a situation. If you wouldn’t do it there (or if you felt uncomfortable about doing it) then you agreed not to do it while playing another CoT member, we use OTB in our Group Title, but many things are probably allowed in OTB competitions, which we as a group do not use, so the main thing in our group is the word Trust.

If you feel it may be against what you would do when playing a friend, discuss it, either with your opponent, or in the Group itself, we have had discussions, and allowed things to be used within the rules, but after all discussions, the final decision is made by Admin, based on the original vision of the group.

I have enclosed the rules as we see them, and hope this helps you understand, we never wanted the biggest or the best group, just somewhere to play what we call a “straight” game, and we are surprised we have so much interest. We have had members leave who said they could not play within our rules, and we have deleted people from the group who we felt may not be able to stay within the rules.

                        THE CIRCLE OF TRUST OTB                            MEMBERSHIP RULES 

COT Members agree to abide by the following rules when playing other COT Members: 

1.   DO NOTS.  -     Do not use any extra help, visual or electronic which may give you an advantage over your opponent once a game has commenced. This includes, but is not limited to, the following

1        Analysis Board

2        Conditional Moves

3        A separate board to practice “what if” moves on

4        Databases

5        Opening books (or other medium)

6        Any chess engine or text book which may give an unfair advantage over your opponent

7        Any other outside assistance you may think of ( Father, Mother, or Sibling ).-         This list of restrictions does not apply when playing non-COT games. 

1. You may study anything you wish while the game is in progress, as long as it does not directly and intentionally help with your current game(s). (Example of what is not allowed: (Opponent makes a move, you log off and intentionally check for an answering move for when you log back on)

-  Actions and tools allowed during a COT game

1        The Notes module on the specific game page.

2        Reviewing your last few moves with the Moves button

3         Your own brain, knowledge and creativity-  

This is a rough summary of the rules, but we hope the Trust part will cover anything we have not listed, we allow the notes, and  the moves review because we have members from 12yrs old, and into their 70’s so sometimes it is difficult not to lose your train of thought when it can take up to 24hrs between moves, any member playing someone outside CoT can use the prevailing rules if they wish. I personally play by CoT rules all the time (we do not play touched move, we use the submit button, if 2 members wish to play touched move, they can agree before the game starts, I never played touched move with my friends, and it only bothered me if they picked up pieces, and waved them around (then usually put the back in the wrong place) lol."

COT has definitely created a niche in this site. Congratulations to its founder!

Will somebody post the usernames of all its members (which has grown to over 100, I heard) and their latest ratings in chess.com? I couldn't find this in their website and even here. It will be interesting to know who are their top players and their comments on this issue of databases (if they have not done so).

Also are there titled players (FM, NM, IM, GM) in their roster (including the non-users outside of COT)? I think I saw a few titled players on the USER side. These statistics can be an interesting sidelight to discussions in this forum.

Perhaps MainStreet or artifiz can provide the above info.

Thank you! 

CoT does not have any titled players, as I said above, when it was first started it was for a few mates who wanted to play their way, we did not expect it to grow the way it has, and it is still just a group of friends, we chat about everyday things, and just play chess, we dont go into deep disussions about chess, it may even appear to an outsider that chess is secondary to many of our members, belonging to a group of friends, and feeling comfortable, and able to join in the chat on a daily basis, whether you are 12, or in your 70's, and your rating is 800 or 2500, you are listened to, and treated the same as other members, as long as you obey the Group creed, that is why most of our members belong. For a list of our members, we all have (CoT) which most of us changed to (CoT OTB) next to our name (changed because the View Players sort was changed to not recognise the ( ) brackets when we did a sort, and we were getting all the Scotts, and Scotties showing in our sort) and even now Jay has tried to fix it, and we have added OTB to our name, we can only extract 1 page of members (20) not all members, I dont know if this helps, but really, we are not trying to recruit members, we feel the right people will find us, or we will stay as we are, no problem either way.